A sub friend of mine is fishing in the vanilla pond. She is still caught between wanting to have someone but knowing she can never go back to vanilla. I understand, every so often I go there also. But I know that what I want won't be found there because I want it to be part of my life and not just a sexual encounter.

When she tries to explain to the men about D's, they just don't get it. Most of them reply "I can tie you up and spank you, no problem". Unfortunately no matter how good looking they are or how strong of a man they are they just don't get it. It's like seeing a really hot guy only to realize he's gay, you just know he will never be what you want.

She will figure it out eventually and I will probably through my line back in the pond at some point when I get frustrated.

One of the things I particularly love about this lifestyle is the honesty, I know I've said this before. This is a lifestyle that allows you to work out hard and soft limits and expectations before you commit, to a scene or a relationship. This isn't something I knew about when I first began my journey but after educating myself I now know I have a say before anything happens. I think that is one point that vanilla relationships could benefit from in their world. What if before they decided to commit to each other they both sat down and she said ok these are my limits and he said these are my expectations. Compromises were made on both sides but in the end an agreement was come to that they both could live with and growth on certain issues was agreed upon. I wonder if there would be as much divorce as there is today.

So I had a lunch date and I met someone. There was no instant connection but it was comfortable. Afterward we spoke about limits and expectations. He couldn't agree to my limits and I couldn't agree to his expectations of not respecting them. In the end we parted ways and there were no hard feelings.

Ok this is the part where I have to say...what is is about guys wanting to (oh my god) pee on a woman? LOL
I can honestly say that MAYBE in a trusted committed relationship I might be able too but not with someone right away. Things like that have to be built up to, complete trust and honesty have to be instilled before limits can be pushed.

At the same time I was talking with someone else but in the end he didn't believe I was submissive. lol Reminds me of those guys who would send me messages and say "call me now if you are really submissive" (yeah I'll get right on that). He felt I was more into kink than I was a submissive. I am not in the habit of trying to make someone accept me for who I am because that is why I chose this lifestyle in the first place, because people are accepting of me.


PS I added several links to leathernroses with tons of great information.


  1. This is a really fascinating post, sbf. I love your insight: "It's like seeing a really hot guy only to realize he's gay, you just know he will never be what you want." It takes such hard work to instill D/s in someone where it isn't naturally there. Sometimes it might work completely, sometimes partially, sometimes not at all. Not exactly an easy way to start out a completely new relationship.

    And I always enjoy your thoughts when you meet "potential" dominants. I can hardly believe what is out there in the pond. lol. :-) The peeing - something I thought never! - but now after trust and love, I think, ok maybe once. I can't imagine bringing it up at the first meeting but then again I want to be the last person to pass judgment on anyone kinks. If he needs it, he needs it. At least he's honest.

    And you're honest. Because of that, I think you'll definitely find the perfect fit, even if it takes a little bit of fishing.

    love, squirrel

  2. I am so very tired of the "a submissive must be a doormat or they aren't a TRUE submissive" that I'm about to go on a rant.

    Worse? The surprising number of submissives that perpetuate this stereotype and demean other submissives for not following it!

    Thank you for being sane. It's greatly appreciated.

  3. Leather & Roses was one of the first sites I came across when I started researching the lifestyle, It is a great site with a lot of good information.

    Talking about limits there was an interesting question that came up in Dear Prudence this week regarding kinks and limits:

  4. Oh, gosh, just sending lots of hugs... It's so hard sorting through all that - all that stuff out there. Most of which is not "It" at all.

    Hang in there.


  5. oh, smart lady. i love reading your blog. you always get to the heart of the issue so cleanly and quickly. can totally relate. thanks for writing.

  6. Very good comments on limits and expectations. Yes, it would probably help vanilla couples to spell them out too.

    As far as fishing in the vanilla pond, I think it it difficult to get a vanilla guy to meet your needs in this lifestyle. If it is not their thing, it's often difficult for them to get into it. Several bloggers write about how their husbands don't spank them as often as they like, much less dom them. The problem is there aren't a lot of fish in the D/s pool but I think if you are patient, you can find what you are looking it.

    And I agree totally that a sub is not a doormat. I think the best subs are strong, independent women who want to be subs, not doormats. Good luck.


  7. It's actually kind of interesting that there isn't more pre-relationship discussion of limits and expectations prior to non D/s relationships. I wonder why? I mean, wouldn't it be nice to know in advance whether you are suited for each other, whether it's about wanting kids, definitely not wanting kids, wanting someone who will do anal, definitely not willing to do anal? Could it be because people start relationships based on attraction alone and assume the rest will work out? Who knows. I'm new at being single, so I'm learning as I go, and I've decided that if my current relationship ever falls apart, I will be making a list of requirements for any future men showing interest, and if they aren't suited for the position, they don't get the job.

  8. Oh, I forgot to say, you meet a lot of men who want to pee on you? That hasn't come up yet in my current relationship. Master is so into cleanliness that such a thing might not be of interest to him. He probably wouldn't want to ever touch me again after he peed on me.

  9. Yeah fishing in the vanilla pond. I remember when I was doing that last year.....I had the mindset that most vanilla guys could be at least a little kinky. I guess the real question was, was that good enough for me? In the end I Don't think it would have been.

    One thing I did find interesting is that when you said: "Ok this is the part where I have to say...what is is about guys wanting to (oh my god) pee on a woman? LOL ". I'm not into that kind of thing myself but that doesn't mean it's wrong or something to laugh off. I'm sure that many vanilla people say the same types of things about 'girls that want to be spanked or controlled', you know?

    Sorry, I tend to play devil's advocate in these situations because even those of us with very open minds can get caught in traps where we don't understand something and therefore put it down. When the truth of the matter is...for at least some of the people who engage in such activity, it works for them...and that's what matters. =)

    But yeah I agree...a lot of the edgier things like that I myself would not want to engage in right away but with someone I loved and trusted first.

    As for the guy who thought you weren't submissive. He's fallen into the same trap about the label 'submissive' and what that means to him...and just because it didn't match up to what it means to doesn't mean it isn't true.

    Funny how we are sometimes. =)

  10. You do have to have that kind of trust to build up to limit pushing...and you are so right to walk away if the Top/Sir/Dom is unwilling or unable to bend to your line in the sand.

    i mean, really, how the hell can you trust a guy who won't respect that?

    Does that mean if you're in a scene and it gets to rough/intense and you use your safeword that you'll be ignored?

    That is not mutual respect, that's a guy looking for a punching bag, imho...

    Good on you for knowing that at the outset.

    as to the pee well...i'd have to say its a b "wee" (giggle) fantasy of mine...


  11. I don't believe there is any "set" way for behaviours/feelings etc to be defined as submissive. There are those yes that have an ideal of what a submissive should be like (albeit based on reading BDSM fantasy novels?), then there are the others that realize that it takes two, what works for one D/s, may not work for another D/s relationship. I believe it's in the dynamics of the couple that will bring out the desires and D/s from each other. Of course there are ideals each Dom and sub will bring based on either past relationships or hidden desires not yet acted upon. The right combination of Dom and sub and communication in time will bring these out. I don't believe a quick chat nor email can do it at the first. As for peeing, well, I'm not sure how I feel on that subject, haven't given it thought till now. LOL. Cheers sbf and to all the others.